Pelles C forum
Pelles C forum => General discussion => Topic started by: CommonTater on July 28, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
-
In another thread, Johnf mentioned that at times we (I?) have been a bit rough on newbies.
So a couple of questions...
What is the best way to respond to inquiries from newcomers in the various forums?
Is there a general philosophy we should follow for this BBS?
Should we treat posts in "Beginner questions" differently than in "Expert questions"?
I think a discussion of this could be very helpful...
-
Doing the homework for others is not something I would support.
I have always had the impression, that newbies get better results, if they are directed into the right direction to solve their problem.
I would do it in the following order:
- point out their errors and point them to a resource they can use to solve the problem
- make some small corrections to the code, so they see how to get it corrected, if they still fail to solve their problem with the resources provided
- as a last resort one could still post the entirely corrected code, but usually this shows that the OP is not interested in learning C
-
Doing the homework for others is not something I would support.
Absolutely. The idea that a credible forum like this could be reduced to "homework answers" is galling.
This is why I asked for discussion on this...
Thinking maybe there's a better way...
-
Yeah, doing the homework for others is not good. The Stefan suggestion is very good.
I remember at the beginning I could not understand C even with the correct solution at hand.
-
There should be a no homework rule in the forum.
-
There should be a no homework rule in the forum.
I agree.
John
-
There should be a no homework rule in the forum.
I agree.
John
I agree too.
When if I have time I expose some concepts, if they get them, they are really studying and interested in theyr study, else don't care more.
-
There should be a no homework rule in the forum.
If we say "No homework answers", then I agree...
However if someone is stuck on a homework question I see no problem helping them, so long as we're not handing out ready to use answers. It creates a bit of a problem since we won't always know it's homework...
Then there's the problem of helping people who are self-educating and get stuck on one of the exercises in their books. In that case they have no teacher or TA to run to for help...
-
I remember at the beginning I could not understand C even with the correct solution at hand.
:D ... 8 years into it and I still get that feeling from time to time...
-
There should be a no homework rule in the forum.
If we say "No homework answers", then I agree...
Well, that should rather be "We don't do the homework for you".
People should IMHO very well be able to ask questions regarding their homework here, but can not expect to dump a post with the general problem description here and then come back and pick up the program "ready for delivery".
They should be encouraged to post specific questions, with code snippets of what they come up with and have issues with. For that, they should get specific answers or at the very least getting pointed in the right direction...
However if someone is stuck on a homework question I see no problem helping them, so long as we're not handing out ready to use answers. It creates a bit of a problem since we won't always know it's homework...
I would say in that case, we should err on the safe side and assume that it is homework. If someone is really interested in getting a helping hand, they should have no problem to come back and explain a bit more...
Then there's the problem of helping people who are self-educating and get stuck on one of the exercises in their books. In that case they have no teacher or TA to run to for help...
And that's the point where the soft matter hits the fast rotating object...
If people are in need to get help for a C programming issue and post in a forum like this, they need to be willing to
a) take a look in the forum first to see if their problem might already be answered
b) try to describe their problem as good as possible
c) accept advice/answers they get and most importantly, provide themself feedback on those answers they get
Ralf
-
Well, that should rather be "We don't do the homework for you".
People should IMHO very well be able to ask questions regarding their homework here, but can not expect to dump a post with the general problem description here and then come back and pick up the program "ready for delivery".
They should be encouraged to post specific questions, with code snippets of what they come up with and have issues with. For that, they should get specific answers or at the very least getting pointed in the right direction...
I fully agree that we should provide help for homework questions, but that we don't do the homework for others.
If people are in need to get help for a C programming issue and post in a forum like this, they need to be willing to
a) take a look in the forum first to see if their problem might already be answered
b) try to describe their problem as good as possible
c) accept advice/answers they get and most importantly, provide themself feedback on those answers they get
I have found that youngsters seldom search for already existing answers, but just ask the question over and over again.
As for all things ones mileage will vary.
-
I have found that youngsters seldom search for already existing answers, but just ask the question over and over again.
Becoming ever more demanding with each iteration :D ...
My all time favorite is the kid who asked the same question about 5 or 6 times, got essentially the same answer every time then went "deep end" with a bunch of foul language and "Why won't you help me?" :o So as an experiment I posted a working solution, he copied and pasted it into his homework assignment and got caught cheating by his teacher... I love Karma!
Anyhow... Since we appear to be close to a consensus on this how about one of the mods tapping out a little policy statement and posting it as a sticky message at the top of the beginner's forum?
(Of course, I would welcome any additional comments on this topic... )
-
My all time favorite is the kid who asked the same question about 5 or 6 times, got essentially the same answer every time then went "deep end" with a bunch of foul language and "Why won't you help me?" :o
I have a déjà-vu ;D
The same thing happened in a forum dedicated to BASIC.
-
My all time favorite is the kid who asked the same question about 5 or 6 times, got essentially the same answer every time then went "deep end" with a bunch of foul language and "Why won't you help me?" :o
I have a déjà-vu ;D
The same thing happened in a forum dedicated to BASIC.
That wasn't by chance the same dude that posted his FreeBASIC problem on the FreeDOS mailing list?
Ralf
-
ROFL!
So I should take that this is not a new occurance .... ;)
-
That wasn't by chance the same dude that posted his FreeBASIC problem on the FreeDOS mailing list?
No, this was on three different forums dedicated to "Liberty BASIC", respective "Just BASIC".
Finally he was yelling at members and moderators for not instantly posting the solution and just giving hints about how to solve it on his own.
That was the last thing he was doing before he was banned from all three forums.
He might still flame at LB and JB on other forums, I have heard.
I would never support a "only give me the solution, I am not interested in resolving this on my own" habit.
-
In another thread, Johnf mentioned that at times we (I?) have been a bit rough on newbies.
So a couple of questions...
What is the best way to respond to inquiries from newcomers in the various forums?
Is virile (http://www.themodernman.com/how_to_become_an_alpha_male.html) potent there a general philosophy we should follow for this BBS?
Should we treat posts in "Beginner questions" differently than in "Expert questions"?
I think a discussion of this could be very helpful...
I'm newbie both to the field and this forum. So from my past experience in other forums, I'm giving my opinion here as you have asked. Well, as a beginner, I'm stuck at many areas and my understanding is far below than you guys. But when I post some questions(very basic questions), some senior person will make fun of this and some others will accompany him as they are the masters. Nope, they were newbie ones. So what I don't really like is the attitude of the experts. It's better if they try to put themselves in the shoes of beginners while answering. Hope people will get themselves corrected consistently(including me :) ).
-
I'm newbie both to the field and this forum. So from my past experience in other forums, I'm giving my opinion here as you have asked. Well, as a beginner, I'm stuck at many areas and my understanding is far below than you guys. But when I post some questions(very basic questions), some senior person will make fun of this and some others will accompany him as they are the masters. Nope, they were newbie ones. So what I don't really like is the attitude of the experts. It's better if they try to put themselves in the shoes of beginners while answering. Hope people will get themselves corrected consistently(including me :) ).
I doubt anyone here would make fun of you. However; you do need to understand that computer people in general and programmers in particular are a very direct bunch. If there's something wrong with your code, you will most likely hear about it... If you want help with your homework, be ready to accept criticism.
Having given this some thought, I agree with the others... Simply handing out answers doesn't help you learn. A significant part of programming is problem solving. You don't develop those skills by being handed cut and dry answers; in the same way you don't learn math from a calculator. You develop them by being given a nudge in the right direction but otherwise left to figure it out on your own.
Consider this scenario...
You are working for a major software house. It's your first weekand the boss hands you an assignment for something unlike anything you've seen before. You tear up the internet looking for code samples but find nothing. The usual forums bring little or no help. You pour over your text books and can find nothing even close. Now you have no choice but to figure it out on your own...
(EDIT: :D and before you ask, yes this does happen, quite often in fact)
If you've not devloped the skillset to analyse a problem, break it down into it's component parts and then work out a step by step solution (really tiny steps in C) you are probably going to end up in an industry where the key phrase is "Would you like fries with that".
Each computer program is a problem to be solved. The programmer's task is to understand the problem well enough to describe it to a totally obedient idiot in such a way as to get the job done without foul ups... The actual writing of code is but a small part of what we do.
Always remember: Nobody has ever solved a problem they don't understand.
Finally... welcome to the profession and the forums.
-
I'm newbie both to the field and this forum. So from my past experience in other forums, I'm giving my opinion here as you have asked. Well, as a beginner, I'm stuck at many areas and my understanding is far below than you guys.
Ok, nothing wrong with that, that's what's called "learning"...
But when I post some questions(very basic questions), some senior person will make fun of this and some others will accompany him as they are the masters. Nope, they were newbie ones. So what I don't really like is the attitude of the experts. It's better if they try to put themselves in the shoes of beginners while answering. Hope people will get themselves corrected consistently(including me :) ).
Well, what "attitude" is it that you do not like?
Please consider that this is a technical forum, not some "social hub for hugs and cuddles to sooth some bruised egos"...
Nobody is making fun of any newbies, but if they do not provide proper information/examples or expecting that others do their (home)work for them, sorry, they will be told so.
If you (as in "the newbies looking for help" in general) do not understand a response, ask questions about the parts that you do not understand. We (as in "the regulars spending their time to help newbies") can, specially in a first time post, not easily judge the level of knowledge someone has. So it is not always easy to find the right "level" in which to respond to a question.
That's one of the points where "you" need to do some work of your own in order to ask questions, provide more information.
There is a communication issue here, and in some cases, both sides need to adjust. And it doesn't help then if some newbies just consider them self misunderstood and then either complain "you are sooo mean to newbies" or not respond at all.
That's something that I personally consider a bad attitude of some newbies towards the people that spend their own free time trying to help others...
Ralf
-
Please consider that this is a technical forum, not some "social hub for hugs and cuddles to sooth some bruised egos"...
Hi Ralf... +1 with you on this point...
This is one of the big reasons I started this thread. It seems that you can't point at a mistake and say "this is wrong" without someone getting all ticked off at you... and moreso as time passes. At first I thought I was perhaps being a bit too rough on people --I'm very prone to speak my mind at times-- but then I started to see this new trend and thought perhaps a little advice from my online friends was in order.
Computers --literal things that they are-- are not a good mix with pride or easily bruised egos... The floods of error messages most of us old-hat programmers laugh at will quite rapidly strip away any pride and reduce the weak of character to a sobbing mess... They are obedient slaves and adament masters... We all have to get used to that.