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Author Topic: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"  (Read 4030 times)

Offline EdPellesC99

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"Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« on: October 25, 2011, 08:32:37 am »
I stumbled upon this:

http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/

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frightening and unacceptable: users would have to go through complicated and risky measures to circumvent the restrictions; the popular trend of reviving old hardware with GNU/Linux would come to an end, causing more hardware to be tossed in landfills; and proprietary operating system companies would gain a giant advantage over the free software movement, because of their connections with manufacturers.

There is a petition you can sign

CommonTater

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 05:19:21 pm »
It does seem, of late, that much is being done to dissuade all but the most ambitious amongst us.  Between the UAC, code signing, manifests, metro coding, etc. the little guy is really hard pressed... never mind the panic if some piece of otherwise inoccuous code stops a machine from booting....

This is getting a tad ridiculous.   >:(

Give me back the "good old days" when shareware was king and the little guy still stood a chance.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 05:22:47 pm by CommonTater »

Offline EdPellesC99

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 05:31:20 pm »
Boy you said it Tater.

I am thinking that people like us ...in the future, will look back at the "XP days" (when other OS could easily co-exist on the machine) as the "days of freedom" before the advent of the "Nanny OS dictators".

I am wondering if little people have a chance ....against the forces of those: "looking to protect us".

Must the pendulum of flexibility and freedom swing the other way?   And all because there are people, "out there", who use their talents in a destructive rather than constructive way.

All 'n all pretty darn sad.

CommonTater

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 08:10:45 pm »
I am presently mid-way through a total rewrite of my Remote Media package.  Now there was nothing wrong with the original, it worked just fine on 2000, XP, 7, etc.... except for one small problem.  I used a DLL with a hook in it to catch program launches (to give the server feedback about what's running and what's not) and on about half the vista machines where people installed it, the UAC was being triggered for reasons I never did figure out...  I know it was the DLL but the "why" is a total mystery...

Now I'm sure that you can appreciate that having the system stop and ask if it's OK to run this program on a "headless" HTPC machine, intended to be administered from the LAN is a bit more than minor pain in the backside.  ("Headless" = no keyboard, no mouse)

Just my luck, it would stop the thing from booting entirely with this new BIOS replacement...

Microsoft really needs to get out of this "Our operators are too stupid to handle their own machines" mindset.  It's not true to begin with, it's an insult to any experienced user and a nuisance to everyone...  If I tell it it's OK to run a given program once... that should be enough.

Indeed I do crave the good old days and to be fully honest, if there was a way to update Win2000 with High Definition Audio support (which nees XP sp3) and SATA (again XP sp3) I'd be there in a heartbeat... Those were great times for programmers.  Tons of decent freeware and shareware, lots of innovation going on, simple setups and ultra reliable operation....

Nothing would make me happier than to see Microsoft wake up and gut all the eye-candy and bloat out of Windows, taking a "Back to Basics" approach with all the extra mupping snarf installable as extras... most of my clients never use the Windows CD/DVD writers, never use speech recognition, speak English and so on.  A Minimalist version would be just the ticket for 90% of what I do.

IMO... the current direction has a lot more to do with big Corproations trying to protect their market share than anything even remotely related to security or end user convenience. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 08:14:41 am by CommonTater »

Offline EdPellesC99

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 02:19:42 am »
All I can say is Yes Yes Yes.
 
And I think that is what anyone with a brain in their head could ever say in response to you Tater.

If only enough people would catch wind of this and scream bloody murder at the senseless of this.

Maybe they will hear us.

If anyone has an idea of where we could complain ....POST the url !

   Otherwise they will steam roller over grass roots innovation !

   Tx for the great post-back Tater, (sp edit)

........Ed
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 01:52:07 pm by EdPellesC99 »

CommonTater

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 07:24:11 am »
You're welcome Ed... thanks for the opportunity to vent!

I figure, this new startup protocal is likely to force a huge upheaval in the software side of the industry.  Anyone installing a custom service or multi-boot loader is likely to find themselves staring at a machine that won't boot up, meaning that a lot of network level maintenance routines --eg. consolidation services for larger data bases that often run behind screen savers-- may leave them stranded with their only access to their data being to remove hard disks, mount them in an OLDER computer, extract their data and reassemble it elsewhere. Updating your corporate lan to newly leased boxes could in fact turn out to be a huge mistake... and it could easily turn into a huge nightmare for "the little guy" who's already struggling with all the other crap they've dumped on us of late.

Now, add to this that for Windows 8, one of the big brags is that "It comes with everything you need" --yes, they're now bundling Office in the OS-- and you have one massive bloatware problem that you may not be able to resolve.  MS has quite the history (starting with IE) of bundling applications that cannot be removed without disabling other, needed, functions of the OS.  I'm not sure what 8's footprint is but with Win7 it grew to a whopping 20gb, up from 200 megs for Win2000... I actually have a CD (not a DVD) here with win 98, win me and win 2000 on it... for Win7 I need at least a DVD for the "Home Premium" version and a dual layer DVD for the "Ultimate" version... Windows 8 gets bigger again...

As I mentioned, the real key to where all this is going is right on Windows 8's default startup screen... It's called, very simply "Store"... but it's the first up-front step to an Apple like, "You can only run what we sell" approach.   Say "Bye Bye" to shareware, freeware and even the one-guy programming houses...

Load up Win2000 in a virtual machine... notice how EASY it is to use... Notice how FAST it is ... It makes my point for me.

EDIT... and here's a little look at our future...
http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/join?cid=sw:dev4atom1786
Also
http://appdeveloper.intel.com/sites/files/pages/SDK%20Developer%20Guide.pdf   (Page 7)






« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 08:44:32 am by CommonTater »

Offline EdPellesC99

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 05:02:06 pm »
   Tater you don't need to hear it from me, but I have to say anyway:Nice job.
You sure laid out the situation and background, for the reader to quickly see/grasp the basic problem.

   The insane bloat to satiate the need for more and more "eye-candy-display" is crazy.

   It looks like 90% of a programmer's work in the future will be incorporating visual fluf into the app, and trying to get around the ever more insidious UAC side of things.

   I did not know 8 would come with Office. Probably more entwined with the OS than ever, in the ways you describe with IE etc.. Microsoft of course will then reduce the chances the user will ever install Open Office.

   Your summary on OS install disc sizes describes the bloat well.

   Apple always seemed even more controlling to me (and pricey), the opposite of open source thinking.

   I never played with Windows 2000. I went from DOS 3.2, to barely seeing Windows 95, then several year hiatus, and then landing on planet XP. Where I still am.

   In Windows 7 professional, you can just load up an OS install disk (2000 or XP) in the virtual machine?
Is that the way it works? Do you then have to re-authorize in the usual way? Does it work just as well ? Can you boot up in XP, or do you boot up in 7 then switch to XP virtual?

   Hope Win 8 will have a prof ver, with Virtual machine capability......

   Wonder if suppliers would consider keeping a line of laptops setup to function with older operating systems, or maybe you will be stuck with putting a desktop together yourself.

   The age of small powerfull computers has kept a lot of people all over the world happily occupied with an interesting activity: programming.

   I remember when you had to have access to a mainframe punching your cards and adding them to the front end of a stack of 2000 plus IBM cards in the card reader hopper (2000+ = the fortran compiler), and running them through the card reader.
Yrs later, punching your program into a roll of @ 1" wide tape, and submitting your "roll to be run", to the mainframe operators.

   Waiting, always waiting to see the results .... hours or the next day so you could start working the bugs out.

   How many programmers today would be Sooo interested in programming, that they could be excited and content with this (if this is all there was) !

   Most today would bail if they could not write with Delphi, or html with DreamWeaver.... focusing on fast output operating in "high level" mode producing cheap bloat that can be such a headache to work bugs out.
There may be more money, but a lot less craftsmanship (and pride in it).

Tx again for laying it out so well for any readers of this thread that happen by.
.......Ed

   I checked out your links. "$99 membership waived first year".....like the pusher that offers the first drugs for free. Get you involved and playing with them.

Their worry will be a world-wide revolt. Many screaming to keep XP around longer, came close to revolt (but not too!).

....And Yes, very similar to Apple, THEM sanctioning your apps etc. and moving towards what ... something worse ?



CommonTater

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 06:09:32 pm »
You're welcome Ed.  Like I said, thanks for the chance to vent. 

The real big question now is if I will still be programming a year from now --especially with that App-Store requiring online approval to run a program.  I took one look at that and nearly got sick to my stomach...

EDIT... just imagine the day the internet at your office goes down and none of your software will work.


No argument with most of your points, that's for sure...

Yes you can load Win2000 up into a virtual machine, but you will need a serial number to make it work...

« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 06:24:44 pm by CommonTater »

Offline EdPellesC99

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 06:58:17 pm »
I found an OEM copy of XP Prof Sp3 I can buy for $49 ... thinking of buying it as a hedge... as it is still available.

Your reply, for me, brings up this "cloud mania" for me.

I have from the start felt that operating your computer contingent on instant access to the internet is dangerous.

Am I the only one concerned about this?

It reminds me of the smarts behind ham radio operators being the only ones that can function in an emergency by
running off a car battery if necess...... while everyone else is down because of no electricity.
They are still right, and they are fewer and fewer amongst us (and older and older).

The cloud, and the need for everyone to convert and be dependent on it .....strikes me as incredible hype !

   .......Internet down for the duration (some kind of catastrophe), everyone's computer powerless ..... problem solving ability grinds to a halt, except for the few........... and are they friend or foe?

I am NOT conspiratorial, I am just not a brain-dead follower.

   Also the cloud will not drive powerful self-contained computer prices down ... but up and up.

   Have you ever seen anyone express a concerned thought about this?   I have not !

CommonTater

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Re: "Learn more about Windows 8, UEFI, and boot restrictions"
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 08:45:47 pm »
I found an OEM copy of XP Prof Sp3 I can buy for $49 ... thinking of buying it as a hedge... as it is still available.

I know I shouldn't say this but there are (ahem) other ways to get XP...  Also, look up NLite which allows you to reconfigure 2000 and XP, taking out a lot of useless crap, slipstreaming service packs, integrating drivers etc. 

http://www.nliteos.com/

I was actually able to create a copy of XP that would boot up and run in under 80 megs with it.

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Your reply, for me, brings up this "cloud mania" for me.

I have from the start felt that operating your computer contingent on instant access to the internet is dangerous.

Am I the only one concerned about this?

Not anymore you aren't...  I remember when this whole remote execution, online storage thing was just starting up.  I explained it to a friend and his big comment, in a totally condescending voice, was: "Somebody forgot to ask 'how many ways can this come back to bite me?'  Didn't they?"  ...  I was right on floor laughing.  But he is right... it's a massive failure of foresight and it WILL come back to haunt them.

Me, personally, I'm just waiting for the day one of the giant cloud repositories gets hacked and all kinds of competative information comes up for sale... Seriously, it's not even a bad idea... it's just plain stupid.

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It reminds me of the smarts behind ham radio operators being the only ones that can function in an emergency by
running off a car battery if necess...... while everyone else is down because of no electricity.
They are still right, and they are fewer and fewer amongst us (and older and older).

As a one time ham, and liftetime radio enthusiast I can confirm that... It wasn't the cell networks or the internet getting information into and out of a flooded New Orleans... It as ham radio operators and CBers...

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The cloud, and the need for everyone to convert and be dependent on it .....strikes me as incredible hype !

Not to worry, the first major crash and the whole thing will vapourize.

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I am NOT conspiratorial, I am just not a brain-dead follower.

I've always followed a few rules in life, one of which is "Question Everything".

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Have you ever seen anyone express a concerned thought about this?   I have not !

LOL... now we both have.