NO

Author Topic: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP  (Read 16265 times)

agp

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2014, 11:26:05 pm »
Quote from: jj2007
In some years, no other compiler will be able to support this market niche.

Yep!

I think it's on the programmer his self to decide which functions he use are compatible or not to the various os. Is there a serious reason to drop xp support in v8? Then drop it! If not, then let it by supporting xp. It could be a feature for people who run their old xp, looking for a modern c compiler with a nice small and fast ide on old hardware. And please also keep in mind the discussion here on the domain about the ms headers and the restrictions which result from the lack of compatibility with the ms c++ definitions. Better gaining people than loose them in competition.

By the way, what does pelle personally think about rewrite the headers? This is a question for the future of pelles c in the c compiler market too.

a) no way
b) why not, but it's a huge task and it need a lot of time (which I don't have).
c) soon after I released v8

What does pelle think?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 11:28:39 pm by agp »

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2014, 10:36:00 am »
_WIN32_WINNT  ;)

Not a big help
Look here and here

Yes, I know that... but it still won't stop czerny from trying to use a program compiled for Win7 on his antique OS... You need a version check like I described to block installation if you are using any post version apis...
 
For example:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364422(v=vs.85).aspx
 
Look closely at the bottom of the page... Minimum OS Version == Vista.
 
If you use FindFirstFileTransacted() in your project and someone tries to run it on Win2k or XP it's gonna crash... Nearly 500 new API calls have been added since XP.
 
Setting WIN32_WINNT to windows 2000 is not going to make that function magically appear in the Win2k DLLs... Hense the need for that install time or run time check.
 

Offline Stefan Pendl

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 567
    • Homepage
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 11:32:24 pm »
You can always use an older release of Pelles C for an outdated Windows release.

I don't see a point in beating a dead horse (also known as Win2k) or one that is fading out (also known as WinXP).

Development should be simple, so why make your code more complicated than needed just to support ancient Windows releases.

Do you really like to add numerous compiler directives to create multiple executables from one source?

Why shouldn't I use the new API function introduced in newer Windows releases, just to keep a fading user base happy?

Come on guys, who is still using a typewriter to develop computer software?

Do what you like, but don't hinder Pelle getting into the next step of developing a future-prove IDE.

Food for thought, no offense intended ;)
---
Stefan

Proud member of the UltraDefrag Development Team

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2014, 01:02:36 am »
You can always use an older release of Pelles C for an outdated Windows release.

Do what you like, but don't hinder Pelle getting into the next step of developing a future-prove IDE.

No need to go to an older release... just be mindful of the Windows API calls.  It's really not a big deal, just some well planned programming.  Nobody is forcing anyone to update anything.
 
I doubt Pelle is hindered by any of this... in fact I'm betting he's having a good chuckle over it, 'cause it is kinda silly.
 
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 01:07:41 am by CommonTater »

czerny

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2014, 08:21:38 am »
but it still won't stop czerny from trying to use a program compiled for Win7 on his antique OS...
You don't want to understand!
I do not want to use a win7 program on a w2k machine as a software user!
I want to use a compiler as a programmer to build software for any os!

Offline jj2007

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 516
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2014, 08:58:15 am »
You don't want to understand!
I do not want to use a win7 program on a w2k machine as a software user!
I want to use a compiler as a programmer to build software for any os!

Well, maybe let's limit it to Windows versions ;-)

Somebody wrote that we need to move on, and use the thousands of new API functions like FindFirstFileTransacted
Quote
[Microsoft strongly recommends developers utilize alternative means to achieve your application’s needs. Many scenarios that TxF was developed for can be achieved through simpler and more readily available techniques. Furthermore, TxF may not be available in future versions of Microsoft Windows. For more information, and alternatives to TxF, please see Alternatives to using Transactional NTFS.]

The point is, you are absolutely free to do so. Like I am absolutely free to invoke this function in assembly, using MASM32 with version 6.14:
Microsoft (R) Macro Assembler Version 6.14.8444
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp 1981-1997.  All rights reserved.


We must distinguish between the tool (Pelles C, MASM) and what we do with the tool.

The tool reads headers and code and spits out executables. We write headers and code. If I need a brand new exotic Win 8.1 function with my 1997 version of MASM, I use Erol's tools to extract a lib from System32\xyz.dll, write ExoticFunction PROTO :DWORD, :DWORD into a textfile, and feed that to my trusty assembler - bon appetit.

As far as I can see, the only really big obstacle for doing so is that the installer of the latest release candidate of Pelles C uses one or two of these exotic functions that Microsoft added after XP...

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2014, 10:32:07 pm »
but it still won't stop czerny from trying to use a program compiled for Win7 on his antique OS...
You don't want to understand!
I do not want to use a win7 program on a w2k machine as a software user!
I want to use a compiler as a programmer to build software for any os!

Trust me, I understand perfectly...
 
But you will not be able to run or test a program written using Win7 API calls on Win2000 ... it will crash because the calls do not exist on your computer.
 
You can not write new stuff from an antique OS...
but you can write antique stuff from a new os.
 
Understand this... Windows API calls like FindFirstFileTransacted() are NOT part of Pelles C. They are not statically linked into your programs. They are housed in DLLs supplied with your operating system.  Yes you can include the header and it will validate the call for the compiler.  Yes you can link to the .lib and it will provide the linker's reference to the DLL ... BUT unless that function actually exists in the DLL, your program is going to crash at runtme.
 
Working from win2k you cannot write any program for any system newer than Win2k, you will not be able to test it as it will crash on your own system. 
 
Working from (say) Win7 would allow you to build for 2000, 2003, XP, 2008, Vista, and Win7. All you need to do is be mindful of the API functions you call.
 
You, my friend, have it backwards.
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 10:38:01 pm by CommonTater »

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2014, 04:21:13 am »
Somebody wrote that we need to move on, and use the thousands of new API functions like FindFirstFileTransacted

NOBODY said that JJ ... please work on your literacy skills.
 
What I did say was that if he wants to use those functions he needs to update his OS because those functions do not exist in the DLLs of windows 2000.
 
Quote
The point is, you are absolutely free to do so. Like I am absolutely free to invoke this function in assembly, using MASM32 with version 6.14:
Microsoft (R) Macro Assembler Version 6.14.8444
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp 1981-1997.  All rights reserved.


The point is that you CANNOT do that.  Yes you can invoke anything you want in assembler... but if the function does not exist on your operating system... guess what happens...
 
Quote
The tool reads headers and code and spits out executables. We write headers and code. If I need a brand new exotic Win 8.1 function with my 1997 version of MASM, I use Erol's tools to extract a lib from System32\xyz.dll, write ExoticFunction PROTO :DWORD, :DWORD into a textfile, and feed that to my trusty assembler - bon appetit.

My god are you not getting any of this?

1) This is a C forum, nobody here gives a rats wrong end about assembler.
2) No you cannot link to a function that does not exist on your operating system.

We're not talking about libs and headers... the question is does the function you imported exist in the DLLs of a given operating system. 

The function "FindFirstFileTransacted"  Does Not exist in the Windows 2000 version of kernel32.dll ... it's simply not there... trying to call it will crash your program.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364422(v=vs.85).aspx

Quote
As far as I can see, the only really big obstacle for doing so is that the installer of the latest release candidate of Pelles C uses one or two of these exotic functions that Microsoft added after XP...

Oh, you mean things like OpenMP? 

OpenMp was adopted by Microsoft with Vista.  So the whole sub-category is useless on anything before Vista.  Why is this so hard to understand?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:25:24 am by CommonTater »

czerny

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2014, 09:50:27 am »
Trust me, I understand perfectly...
No, you do not understand!
We are talking about the tool, an IDE and don't want any limitations with this tool.
We all are able to decide which OS to use to write a certain programm. Sometimes I use win2k, to be sure to be downwards compatibel.

czerny

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2014, 04:17:50 pm »
Trust me, I understand perfectly...
No, you do not understand!
We are talking about the tool, an IDE and don't want any limitations with this tool.
We all are able to decide which OS to use to write a certain programm. Sometimes I use win2k, to be sure to be downwards compatibel.

czerny

Oh boy ... this is getting really stupid. 
 
We've had this conversation before and you have repeatedly demonstrated a very low comprehension of why some things are not supported. 
 
In particular you took to making bug reports about my addins just because they did not work on windows 2000, arguing stenuously that I had to do this just for you.  Let me remind you there are incompatibilities in the visual experience between windows 2k and XP, some things cannot work in both places without extensive version awareness and all that does is bloat the hell out of the code.
 
Nothing says Pelle has to continue writing a windows 2000 compatible IDE **just for your convenience**.  Once again, there are things he can do in more advanced systems that cannot be done on windows 2000 ... Why would you seek to prevent Pelle from incorporating these features into his IDE? 
 
Technology is moving along and you are 15 years behind the times. 
My friend, it's time to either grow up or give up.
 
 
 
mods.... This subject is not and never was about a valid bug report. It should be either locked or moved.
 
 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:19:58 pm by CommonTater »

czerny

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2014, 05:11:57 pm »
Oh boy ... this is getting really stupid. 
I am not a boy and this conversation is really stupid indeed. So I will stop it!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 08:48:32 pm by czerny »

Offline DMac

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 258
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2014, 06:22:04 pm »
Oh boy ... this is getting really stupid. 
I am not a boy and this conversation is really stupid ideed. So I will stop it!
Friend, no need to get offended.  Tator's comment did not refer to you personally.  It is rather simply a figure of speech used as an expression of dismay, resignation, frustration, or annoyance (sarcastic).
I always find in these situations it is best to cut each other some slack and let the matter pass.
No one cares how much you know,
until they know how much you care.

CommonTater

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2014, 06:57:06 pm »
Oh boy ... this is getting really stupid. 
I am not a boy and this conversation is really stupid ideed. So I will stop it!
Friend, no need to get offended.  Tator's comment did not refer to you personally.  It is rather simply a figure of speech used as an expression of dismay, resignation, frustration, or annoyance (sarcastic).
I always find in these situations it is best to cut each other some slack and let the matter pass.

I have a better solution ...
 
I see nothing here that is helping anyone with Pelles C.
 
The suggestion that we update the Windows API resulted in two of the most long term users jumping into "show off" mode: "See I can make it work.  All I have to do is ignore thousands of warnings."  It did absolutely nothing to organize an attempt at contributing new functionality to Pelles C nor did it manage to update a single header.  Well, done! 
 
JJ2007 seems to think that posting ASM code makes him look smarter than us and he's splattering simple questions with complex ASM sequences that do nothing but confuse the person asking.  Beginners need simple answers relevent to C coding... JJ has admitted to never written a single program in C... yet he's still here confusing the hell out of the newbies while doing nothing better than showing off.
 
czerny continues to misunderstand, clinging to an anachronism and lecturing people about their need to support him.  Well the short answer is no we don't have to do that if he can't keep up, that's his problem not ours.
 
Suddenly we are giving users personal platforms to tout their own software.  The new "projects in pelles c" forum is both redundent and counterproductive.  The simple reason being that very few people actually write projects in Pelles C.  Over the years I've only seen my stuff and ultradefrag mentioned here. 
 
The moderators here are inert. Sometimes I wonder how their brains generate enough energy to get them typing.  This forum is not policed in any meaningful way and a lot of people have commented on other forums that nothing helpful ever happens here. The most common complaint?  "A noob cannot come here and get a simple answer to a simple question... "
 
Because of all this Pelles C is one of two things... a first tool for absolute beginners or an excellent tool for experienced programmers writing console programs.  Beyond that it's use is very limited.
 
Pelle had all the right ideas.  A standards compliant fully capable C coding system for console and gui programs... excellent idea and well put together... but the users who've gathered around it simply don't get behind the project and support it. Some have even argued that we should not tamper and use it only "as is"... what a ludicrous assertion!
 
So the forums sit mostly quiet. The software is largely regarded as a beginners tool. AND... I don't see this changing anytime soon.
 
I can now see that I made a mistake coming back here ... a mistake I will not repeat.
 
 

agp

  • Guest
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2014, 10:33:16 pm »
Quote from: CommonTater wrote
This forum is not policed in any meaningful way and a lot of people have commented on other forums that nothing helpful ever happens here. The most common complaint?  "A noob cannot come here and get a simple answer to a simple question... "

I wouldn't say so. I think this forum is a good place to look at for everyone who is interesseted yet in the win32 programming although users today often prefer one of the big c++ frameworks like qt or the ms c# .net framework.

Quote from: CommonTater wrote...


Because of all this Pelles C is one of two things... a first tool for absolute beginners or an excellent tool for experienced programmers writing console programs.  Beyond that it's use is very limited.


I think there is nothing wrong with pelles c if it is an excellent tool for beginners in the c lang. Because it is not a c++ compiler, you can not prevent the more experience users to switch in the course of time to one of the big c++ tool frameworks.
 
Quote from: CommonTater wrote...

I can now see that I made a mistake coming back here ... a mistake I will not repeat.

Just do not expect too much and do not so hot get stuck in to the matter. Cool down!

;)

Offline Pelle

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
    • http://www.smorgasbordet.com
Re: Version 8.00 RC1 installation issue on Windows XP
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2014, 03:14:47 pm »
yada, yada, yada.

As I said else-thread, I will remove the block in the 32-bit setup for Windows XP in RC2 - but I will not officially support XP, test on XP, accept bug reports relating to XP, etc. IIRC, the support for multiple cores on Windows XP is either poor or missing - OpenMP is unlikely to work well/at all. And so on, and so on.
/Pelle